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kahollan
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Going back to 8X10...
      03/28/04 01:53 AM

I know and have heard of the complaints concerning the "grainy" centerfolds and SE cover shots. Well, I was in LA last week. I was sitting in the lounge eating lunch with Arny Freytag. I told him about the complaints on the boards. Surprisingly, he didn't know much about any of this feedback. But he does agree and wishes he could go back to the old style. But even though he and the other photographers would like to, it is all up to the new guy (took the place of Marilyn Grabowski). He just wanted to try new technology I'm guessing.
I posted this just to let you guys know only one person made the decision (at least, that's what I got from it). Maybe they will, but your feedback does get noticed by some of the PB people. Maybe not Arny! He's so busy. Arny wanted to let you guys know, the photographers are instructed on what to do, they don't make the choices on equipment. No matter what, anything they use is expensive! Just keep up the comments!
ps. Also, the celebrities' photos appear because they are should by their own personal "fashion" photographers. They are trained to shoot runway who are always young and perfect, and therefore they focus only on the artistic aspects of the shot, like balance, color, and background. So if you didn't like a certain celebs' photo on the cover or in the mag's pages, it's because they are only used to shooting a specific body type, makeup , or look. Interesting, but I'm sure many of you guys knew this already! Just a thought....

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dsnake
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: kahollan]
      03/28/04 01:59 AM

Thanks a lot for all the great information Kimberly!
You are a sweetheart! It sounds like you had a great time
in L.A.!

Baldy


more Tiffani Hollowell, please!
Cyber Girl would be GREAT!

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Ceifer
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: dsnake]
      03/28/04 02:04 AM

If I was in LA, I'd pay a visit to and kick the shit out of... Hey, Kim sure is a sweety, eh! She deserves a HUGE cookie of her choice.

Mad Prince
Nookie Monster

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dsnake
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: Ceifer]
      03/28/04 02:16 AM

Indeed she does, Mad Prince!

Baldy


more Tiffani Hollowell, please!
Cyber Girl would be GREAT!

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redraven
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: Ceifer]
      03/28/04 02:25 AM

Speaking of cookies...I read somewhere that the IRS is gonna try to tax all the Girl Scouts who sell their cookies. Has anybody else read this???

_______

Life begins at 40??



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someguy1231
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: kahollan]
      03/28/04 03:39 AM

Who are you referring to by "the new guy"? Do you mean their new editorial director, James Kaminsky? Someone else?

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KBOC
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: kahollan]
      03/28/04 08:49 AM

Now that's information we've not seen before.

Peggy (Mozart) and Wil have been the primary advocates of going back to the 8x10 format for centerfolds. If PB truly is listening, that should give Peggy and Wil incentive enough to intensify the campaign

Did Marylin Grabowsky retire? My understanding is that she's been the chief photo editor since before I was born!

Hhmmmm... Hef watches, huh? Maybe I should go back to the critique of the Playboy Philosophy... might get him riled up enough to beat me up about it
In reply to:

Also, the celebrities' photos appear because they are should by their own personal "fashion" photographers. They are trained to shoot runway who are always young and perfect, and therefore they focus only on the artistic aspects of the shot, like balance, color, and background. So if you didn't like a certain celebs' photo on the cover or in the mag's pages, it's because they are only used to shooting a specific body type, makeup , or look. Interesting, but I'm sure many of you guys knew this already! Just a thought....




Yeah, this just re-enforces what I believe about the whole celeb thing. That is that Playboy lets itself be steamrolled in the process of recruiting a celeb to appear in the magazine.

I keep saying that Playboy should only let celebs appear that want do appear (and come to Playboy first!). Otherwise, screw-em! They're not worth the expense.

<---Picture: Kimberly Holland, Sweetest Girl ever to be!

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edphotog
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: KBOC]
      03/28/04 10:24 AM

There is nothing else quite like using a large format camera for shooting the centerfold. Large format cameras have a much larger film area and a host of perspective controls that dont exist in other formats. The gatefold is barely a 3x enlargement from 6x7cm it is much greater than that possibly 8x and if 35mm 16x I am assuming a linear enlargement not area. Photoshop is good but it is not a miracle worker. When it comes to cars there is no substiture for cubic inches the equivalent in photography is There is no substitute for film area

Ed

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CharlieG
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: KBOC]
      03/28/04 10:39 AM

KBOC......Wrong....

We already knew what Arny Freytag thought of the format change from a perosnal face to face private conversation
had New Years Eve with a certain person that regualrly posts on here, that person didn't make that conversation public
but shared that privately with some of us.

Again, not new news about the certain mansion residents lurking on this board, we knew they had their iMac is tuned in here reading many of the posts.....and
NO that person doesn't read the BS news and non Playboy stuff as they don't really give a crap about that but they do read what we say about our favorite PM's, CG's & SE models and what we think about the magazine in general....."Hef Posse" members Holly Madison & Bridget Marquardt posts on this board on rare occasions
And Marylin is "West Coast" photo editor and not the chief..... The decision for the photo format change came from the Photography director of PB, Gary Cole....

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KBOC
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: CharlieG]
      03/28/04 10:53 AM

What was wrong? The bit about Marilyn Grabowsky? She's a sort of shadowy figure in Playboy, though I've heard the name several times over the years. Her name has the aire of a very powerful Chamberlain in the service of an Emperor.

On the "off topic" stuff, it doesn't surprise me that the folks at the mansion aren't interested in it. But the PB Philosophy is something that at one point was integral to PB (or so it seems). What confuses me is that those at the mansion have a product that is supposed to connect to the public at large, yet they don't want to know about the world that public lives in? That strikes me as counterproductive.

<---Picture: Kimberly Holland, Sweetest Girl ever to be!

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jtstar
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: KBOC]
      03/28/04 10:58 AM

In reply to:

I keep saying that Playboy should only let celebs appear that want do appear (and come to Playboy first!). Otherwise, screw-em! They're not worth the expense




Gotta agree on this one

<-- Carmella for 2004 Playmate of the Year

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KBOC
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: KBOC]
      03/28/04 11:06 AM

Charlie, here's something else that Playboy should be aware of:

http://www.charleston.net/stories/033103/bus_31mirror.shtml

In reply to:

Researchers often say that young people don't care about current events, but MTV executives noticed sharpened interest in news events in the weeks following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. So MTV, which had long had some news programming, added more. Then, as war with Iraq began to loom, the channel commissioned a survey of about 600 14- to 24-year-olds. Drug abuse, pregnancy and education are usually cited first in such surveys as "the most important issue facing young people." But this time, the threat of war in Iraq tied with drug abuse and surpassed the other two, MTV says.




We're breeding a nation of News Junkies. Playboy take note!

<---Picture: Kimberly Holland, Sweetest Girl ever to be!

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mozart
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: CharlieG]
      03/28/04 11:07 AM

I'd venture a guess that said person didn't want to get Arny in trouble with his bosses... and so went on the side of caution in not mentioning it.

I've often wondered if Holly still checks out the boards. Boy was she a breath of fresh air, she did a fantastic job setting the record straight; and she's in a position to really know, too. And she has Hef's ear every day. Lucky lady!

Gary Cole is a strong advocate of leaving behind the 8x10 format. I understand his reasons, but that doesn't mean I agree it is the best option. I'm sure Hef had to approve Gary's choice. What muddies up this whole issue is that apparently they've changed post-processing production of the centerfold and that too has affected the appearance of the final printed product. So, until they clean up the production issue, I don't even know for sure what the actual effect of the smaller format photography is... I think the production issue is having a larger effect on the appearance of the printed centerfold.

So is something up with Marilyn Grabowski? She's still listed under the masthead in the April issue.

__
Peggy Wilkins
Evolution AND Revolution!

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CharlieG
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: jtstar]
      03/28/04 11:10 AM

KBOC
In reply to:

Now that's information we've not seen before.




Been there seen that is what I mean....... But the Marilyn thing is news to everyone I will agree....

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KBOC
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: CharlieG]
      03/28/04 11:13 AM

Okay, FINE!

Some of us don't get any face time with those in the know

<---Picture: Kimberly Holland, Sweetest Girl ever to be!

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mozart
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: KBOC]
      03/28/04 11:18 AM

>> Peggy (Mozart) and Wil have been the primary advocates of going back to the 8x10 format for centerfolds.

And dont' forget Charlie!

>> this just re-enforces what I believe about the whole celeb thing. That is that Playboy lets itself
>> be steamrolled in the process of recruiting a celeb to appear in the magazine.

I'd go so far as to say that it results in a loss of editorial control of the magazine: they are giving away too much control. Granted, it's hard to get celebrities to pose nude when the celebs are so concerned with their image; but I would like to see a more collaborative approach, where PLAYBOY works with them to get a good glamour photographer (not fashion photographer) to produce the overall image the celebrity wants: an image that benefits the celebrity, and also fits in PLAYBOY! I'd also like to see more dedicated cover shoots. The November '03 cover was awful, and it seemed obvious that they had to pick that out of the available photos, and there was no special cover shoot.

>> I keep saying that Playboy should only let celebs appear that want do appear (and come to Playboy
>> first!). Otherwise, screw-em! They're not worth the expense.

I don't mind if PLAYBOY actively campaigns.

__
Peggy Wilkins
Evolution AND Revolution!

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KBOC
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 11:25 AM

In reply to:

I'd go so far as to say that it results in a loss of editorial control of the magazine: they are giving away too much control. Granted, it's hard to get celebrities to pose nude when the celebs are so concerned with their image




I don't believe this for a New York Second!

A Celeb posing in Playboy at the height of her celebrity is a long term investment in her future. Shannon Doherty has never been hurt by her posing. She did 90210, then posed. She did Charmed, then Posed. She did that new reality show (forget the name) then Posed.

I'd venture so far as to guess that Marilyn Monroe's appearance in Playboy raised, rather than lowered her esteme. It certainly increased her fame and marketability.

A Celeb posing for Playboy gets more out of posing in the long run than does Playboy in the short run.

I'm miffed that PB doesn't seem to see it this way. They're a vehicle for Celebs rather than a risky end product.

<---Picture: Kimberly Holland, Sweetest Girl ever to be!

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mozart
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: kahollan]
      03/28/04 11:27 AM

In reply to:

Just keep up the comments!


I have made my comments quite well known, I think; but I do have one more opportunity coming up very soon, and can apply "lessons learned" from my previous experiences and hopefully get the issue out there in very clear terms. I'm keeping the faith (and my fingers crossed); and my hope is for the best answer, whatever that answer turns out to be.

__
Peggy Wilkins
Evolution AND Revolution!

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mozart
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: KBOC]
      03/28/04 11:32 AM

In reply to:

I'd venture so far as to guess that Marilyn Monroe's appearance in Playboy raised, rather than lowered her esteme.


I'd say that it raised PLAYBOY's valuation, actually... Marilyn didn't ever pose for PLAYBOY, but her picture did give them a rather momentous start.

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Peggy Wilkins
Evolution AND Revolution!

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oldman
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 11:40 AM

Hefner would definitely have approved the decision to do away with the "hood" camera that was used since the beginning to take the centerfold. It was his decision to use it in the first place. I remember a TV special that aired in the 80's about PLAYBOY and it discussed the high quality and resolution of the centerfolds. They interviewed one of the photo-editors who wanted to see if Hefner could tell the difference when he was given proofs of a centerfold that was not shot with the above mentioned camera and Hefner noticed the graininess immediately and sent the pictures back to be re-shot with the correct camera.
The clarity of the centerfold was always something Hefner insisted on and took pride in. I wonder why he does not seem to care anymore?

oldman

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Kin
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Unacceptable results! [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 11:41 AM

Peggy, Charlie and all who have commented I appreciate all you have said. I have to agree with Charlie on all of the technical aspects of the different formats as well as Ed. But I think what we have all missed, and Peggy seems to have touched on it in her post production comments is the end result is what matters. And that to me is the most troubling thing of all about the situation. How can anyone with any decent eyesight and any appreciation for the beauty of the female form so callously disregard the evidence right before there eyes in the printed magazine? How can anyone with any sense of the history of the gatefold look at the poorly produced, grainy, muddy colored foldout that has appeared in the last few issues and not scream at the top of their lungs? It is truly a travesty and a tragedy to me. The question really is not one of the process so much as the result, and frankly the result is atrocious. It is time to get it fixed, period, whether that means a return to the 8 by 10, higher quality inks and papers, a new photo editor or all of the above. We, as in all of us who love Playboy and its women and history deserve it and should demand it.

Kin

My Favorite Weather Lady

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KBOC
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 11:42 AM

In reply to:

I'd say that it raised PLAYBOY's valuation, actually... Marilyn didn't ever pose for PLAYBOY, but her picture did give them a rather momentous start.




All true, but Monroe also bennefitted from her appearance. Her biggest film up to that point was All About Eve.

She appeared in several films playing second fiddle to Ginger Rodgers and Barbara Stanwick, a few in which she went uncredited, and some very minor films in which she starred. But she became a household name after Playboy. In 1953, after her famous pictures in Playboy, Gentlemen Preferre Blonds, Niagrara and How to Marry a Millionaire premiered, and the rest is history.

Playboy helped itself by publishing the photographs. It's a classic example of "Enlightened Self Interest" help others by helping yourself. Marilyn also bennefitted greatly.

<---Picture: Kimberly Holland, Sweetest Girl ever to be!

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bunnyprincess
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: Ceifer]
      03/28/04 11:51 AM

(giggles a lot!)
She deserves chocolate cookie princess palace.


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mozart
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: KBOC]
      03/28/04 12:10 PM

You're getting your timeline slightly out of order there... When PLAYBOY appeared at the end of 1953, all of Niagara (January 1953), Gentlemen Prefer Blondes (June 1953) and How To Marry a Millionaire (November 1953) had already been released. In fact, there's a small picture of Marilyn in Millionaire that appears in PLAYBOY's first issue. However, it is true that at the time Marilyn's nude calendar story first broke in the Spring of 1952 (she had posed for the pictures in 1949), she had only appeared in supporting roles, including the ones you mentioned in films with Barbara Stanwyck (Clash By Night) and Ginger Rogers (Monkey Business).

__
Peggy Wilkins
Evolution AND Revolution!

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KBOC
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 12:13 PM

Okay, that makes the case even stronger, Peggy.

Were those three films not immensely popular? Did Monroe not go on to make hugely popular films following these?

It makes the case that an appearance in Playboy at the height of one's popularity can very much exend that popularity.

<---Picture: Kimberly Holland, Sweetest Girl ever to be!

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mozart
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Re: Unacceptable results! [re: Kin]
      03/28/04 12:16 PM

In reply to:

The question really is not one of the process so much as the result, and frankly the result is atrocious. It is time to get it fixed, period, whether that means a return to the 8 by 10, higher quality inks and papers, a new photo editor or all of the above


That is very well put; I support that 100%.

__
Peggy Wilkins
Evolution AND Revolution!

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mozart
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: KBOC]
      03/28/04 12:19 PM

In reply to:

It makes the case that an appearance in Playboy at the height of one's popularity can very much exend that popularity.


If that was true in Marilyn's case, with only about 50,000 copies in circulation, surely it would be more so today, with millions in circulation...

__
Peggy Wilkins
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mozart
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: oldman]
      03/28/04 12:24 PM

In reply to:

Hefner would definitely have approved the decision to do away with the "hood" camera that was used since the beginning to take the centerfold.


Just for the record, the large format camera hasn't always been used. I don't know what exactly the history of this is, but a fair number of early centerfolds are very obviously not done in this format, the most obvious case in point being Eleanor Bradley (2/59).

Good question about why it seems he doesn't care. I know he does care, from what he's said recently, but I do wonder how closely he's looking at the printed product anymore. In the past he very likely would have caught it himself.

__
Peggy Wilkins
Evolution AND Revolution!

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HickoryKnoll2448
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: KBOC]
      03/28/04 12:26 PM

Marilyn's appearance didn't do a thing for her career, but make it! Before Playboy, Marilyn was a struggling actress, who could barely get noticed. Every movie she starred in -- all the big ones -- came AFTER her Centerfold. Before that she was still known as Norma Jean Doherty, or Baker! Marilyn had her name legally changed to Marilyn Monroe right around the time her Sweetheart of The Month Playboy was released in December 1953.

Additionally, how many people remember Marilyn Grabowski as a Playmate? She caught Mr. Hefner's eye, and after their relationship ended, Grabowski stayed on, working in the production department. Her decision to go from the 8 x 10 format to the smaller one, even if it's digital is obviously a very poor one. Apparantly Grabowski was never a professional photographer, or she would have listened to those in Playboy who are.

Ron Serafin
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mozart
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: HickoryKnoll2448]
      03/28/04 12:38 PM

You're incorrect in almost every statement you made there... Here are the facts.

Marilyn started using the name "Marilyn Monroe" professionally in 1946, though she didn't have it legally changed until 1956, three years into PLAYBOY's existence.

Her nude calendar was shot in May 1949. At that time, she had had one starring role (Ladies of the Chorus in 1948, a "B" movie) and numerous forgettable bit parts. Late in 1949 she got her breakthrough supporting roles in All About Eve and The Asphalt Jungle. From then through late 1952, she had larger supporting roles in (mostly) comedies until her breakthrough starring role in Niagara, released in January 1953. Her name appeared above the title for the first time in Niagara. After that point, it is accepted that she reached the role of superstar with the release of Gentlemen Prefer Blondes in June 1953. This is still 5-6 months before the release of PLAYBOY's first issue. She appeared on a horde of magazine covers around this time.

Marilyn Grabowski was never a Playmate.

The centerfold photograph is not now and has never been digital.

We haven't established that Marilyn Grabowski made any decision regarding centerfold photography format.

__
Peggy Wilkins
Evolution AND Revolution!

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Kin
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 12:41 PM



My Favorite Weather Lady

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someguy1231
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Re: Unacceptable results! [re: Kin]
      03/28/04 12:54 PM

I'm probably going to get crucified for this, but for this relatively new Playboy reader, I don't see much difference in quality between the "old" CFs and the "new" CFs.

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KBOC
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 01:09 PM

In reply to:

If that was true in Marilyn's case, with only about 50,000 copies in circulation, surely it would be more so today, with millions in circulation...




EXACTLY!

Hence: PB should stop wasting money chasing after celebs, let Celebs chase PB.

<---Picture: Kimberly Holland, Sweetest Girl ever to be!

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CharlieG
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: Kin]
      03/28/04 01:09 PM

Peggy don't cloud the issue with the REAL FACTS.........
It will burst the bubble of the speed-dialers every time.......

BTW, FYI everyone........
Peggy Wilkins is noted in the "industry" as an authority on "Marilyn Monroe" facts and well respected
by every "Marilyn" fan club in the world for her knowledge........



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HickoryKnoll2448
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 01:12 PM

Is my face red! I didn't check for Marilyn Grabowski's Centerfold until I made my stupid statment, and couldn't find her anywhere -- now I know why. As far as Marilyn Monroe goes, I know all that. I just didn't want to throw too many facts out there about her. But it was her Gatefold appearance that gave her career a massive jump start.

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mozart
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Re: Unacceptable results! [re: someguy1231]
      03/28/04 01:26 PM

In reply to:

I'm probably going to get crucified for this, but for this relatively new Playboy reader, I don't see much difference in quality between the "old" CFs and the "new" CFs.


First, let's be clear that we're talking about the printed centerfold in the magazine, not about scans here on the CC which introduce yet another layer of variability. Second, people differ in the degree to which they see detail in photographic images, so if you look at the printed centerfold and it looks great to you, I won't dispute what you say.

My issue is with my perception, and some others have the same issue.

__
Peggy Wilkins
Evolution AND Revolution!

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HickoryKnoll2448
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Re: Unacceptable results! [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 03:18 PM

Question. Has Marilyn Grabowski ever made a guest appearance in Playboy? I've seen photos of her in the magazine over the years (generally in "candid" group shots, and mostly with Mr. Hefner and some of the crew he used to work with), with clothes on, and she was a great looking woman when she was younger -- not that she isn't now, but she certainly isn't unqualified to have been Playmate material at one time.

Ron Serafin
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CharlieG
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Re: Unacceptable results! [re: HickoryKnoll2448]
      03/28/04 03:38 PM

Marilyn Grabowski has never appeared nude, topless, or anything implied as such in Playboy.....

Who I think you may be refering to is Playboy staffer Janet Pilgrim from the 50's
July1955
and Dec 1955
Janet holds the only honor of being a Playmate 2 different times....

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Ionakana
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Re: Going back to 8X10... [re: mozart]
      03/28/04 05:28 PM

...And still the undisputed champion of Marilyn Monroe facts...PEGGY THE PLAYBOY PUGILIST WILKINS!

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